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Arky51's Blog

by Arky51 from St. Petersburg

Last Post 15 days, 6 hours Ago


People from every Nation, Tribe, and Culture on Earth have some definition of Heaven and Hell; Paradise and Punishment. Many of those definitions have common elements, while some are notably diverse. As one who is ever studying, ever learning, ever thinking, I like to share my thoughts. From earliest record it was said, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

There are two base premises:

1.) There is a spirit in the human being which eternally survives the demise of the physical (and therefore animal) body.
The first point of divergence is:
a.)
That spirit inhabits but one physical body, and afterward faces a judgment by the Creator. In said Judgment, the “soul” (the combination of the spirit and its life memories) is primarily evaluated on the basis of performance (behaviors, deeds) and motives.
 
- If that soul is found to have met certain standards and requirements, it is rewarded with a new body, designed to exist for eternity, and a permanent avenue of communion with the Creator. (Proper motives can often trump failures in performance.)
 
- If that soul is found not to have met certain standards and requirements (ungodly behaviors and evil motives), it is punished with separation from the Creator and all who met the standards and requirements. (The best definition of “hell” is “separation from God — exile from His presence.”)
b.) That spirit inhabits but one physical body, and afterward, as the result of certain defined performances, attains to a state of “enlightenment” similar to the common monotheistic definition of a god.
c.) That spirit inhabits more than one physical body, and afterward numerous reincarnations attains to a state of “enlightenment” similar to the common monotheistic definition of a god.

  1. 2.) The spirit in the human being, if such exists, does not survive the demise of the physical body, and enters into oblivion; one simply ceases to exist.

Being conservative, an evangelical Christian in practice as well as profession, I subscribe to Premise #1a, and reject Premise #2 out of hand. As well, I reject points #1b and #1c. If you are one who embraces one of these, it is certainly your option, as reflected in Joshua's pronouncement, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah." (Joshua 24:15)

Going forward with the premise of humanity possessing an immortal spirit, despite the obvious mortality of our flesh, let's look at the implications.

Heaven: Mortality swallowed up in immortality; corruption displaced by the incorruptible; rest from earthly drudgery; no more sadness; no more pain; no more sickness; no more death; eternal bliss; continuous communion with the Creator; a completed sense of purpose; laboring only for an absolutely benevolent Master Who loves beyond measure.

Oh yes, I said laboring. That's not far fetched; after all, when Jesus was asked why He did certain things on the Sabbath, He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." (John 5:17) What? Did you really think I was going to talk about sprouting wings, receiving wings, and strumming a harp? Please . . . no! Not at all.

My vision (or speculation) is of a Kingdom of Priests for the Most High God, on various and sundry junkets through the limitless Universe, Envoys of Ministry to countless other worlds, as assigned by the Great “I AM.” Persons who have a compassion derived from personal knowledge of what it feels like to fail miserably, and having been reconciled and redeemed despite those failures. What a glorious occupation! Carrying the Gospel (good news) of the opportunity to rise from being simply a creation of the Author of Life, to being adopted into His Eternal Family . . . to be called “A Child of God.”

My view, by the way, is in contrast to that of many others. The Bible tells me He said He is preparing a “dwelling place” for me, and that I will be one of a “Kingdom of Priests.” Others want to see a Mansion waiting for them, where they will be kings and priests. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than to be left out.

So then, let us not fail to focus on the alternative. Hell is not so much a place as it is the circumstance of “separation from God.” Jesus spoke of Hell more than any other person in the Bible. "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.” (Matthew 5:30) In those discourses, two pictures are painted. One picture is of being cast into a lake of fire, burning in torments, without relief, forever.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Matthew 25:41)

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

The other is a picture of being cast into eternal darkness. My vision is of one being alive out of body, aware, naked of any physical facility, but with a sense of knowing there are others out there; of being unable to see, hear, speak, touch, taste, smell. Alone with only the events of your memories playing over and over in your mind, and the regret of regrets — “It wouldn't be like this if I had only believed, and obeyed.”

"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:13-14)

Whether or not they are convergent is not entirely clear to me. It is popularly taught that the one is incorporated into the other. However, if they are not different views of the same place, they are equally as frightening from the viewpoint of the average normal social human being. Perhaps, then, it is easy to understand why so many deny the very existence of Hell. They reason to themselves and aloud, “Mankind is too noble a creature for God to sentence to eternal punishment.” They also might say, “God is too noble to sentence any living creature to eternal punishment.”

Don't believe it. While it is written, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9), it is also written, “He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)

ORL

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northton read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 7:30 AM

I'll take door number two. All evidence says the new car is behind door number two. Have fun with your goat.

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 9:20 AM

I have been given evidence for door number one. So then, all evidence cannot say the new car is behind door number two.

Sorry, Northton, but you ARE wrong.

DeborahLakeHelen read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 9:57 AM

I'll see ya on the "other side," Arky! I believe, 100%, word for word, page for page of what the Bible says is true! I know, that I know, that I know I'm saved!

Gorilla read my blog
Aug 20, 2008 | 11:03 AM

1 B to an extent.
Godly in thought and actions..."living as Christ"
Never losing sight of the big picture, I feel if I am a part of GOD, than GOD is a part of me.
Assuming the role of role model. By doing the right thing on this plane, I cannot see failing the test.

My enlightenment helps in the decision making process...only. It is still my choice to be ethical with honor and virtue. The choices become easier over time. I am an ENTP and see things most cannot. I do not wish to offend anyone, but enjoy these spirited discussions.
I seek the truth.

Collectively GOD is nothing more or less than POTENTIAL. Anything more is an assumption. Claims.
Personally it is a whole other animal. It is a personal relationship GOD wants. There are many paths to GOD, as there is only one divine creator.

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 1:10 PM

I am an ENFP who thinks.

When I speak of the "Holiness" of God, I see a Spirit Entity who, in some mysterious manner (not explainable by physics) is throughout all things, and yet not actually part of their fabric. Therefore, God is God, and Creation is Creation.

By His will and action only, the Created can be elevated to near His level, but can never attain to it.

And yes, whether or not one is elevated bears a direct correlation to the establishment of a personal relationship with the Great Maker — the true and only divine.

northton read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 6:27 PM

VVVVVvvvvrrrooooommmmmmmmm!!!!


Sweet! ;8 )


You know, I get many of my moral values from the bible. Thy shall not kill is one of my favorites. I think a belief in Heaven and Hell must be preceeded by the belief in an afterlife. Surely the guilty shall perish. Surely the just shall reign. Verily verily....
It's a nice thought.


But to see the bigger picture you must always use newer data. The more you learn, the smarter you get.


As Layder would say, "You don't get stupider as you get older but you don't get smarter unless ya learn more." Amen?

sensiblejoe read my blog
Aug 20, 2008 | 9:09 PM

You neglect to mention the biblical teaching that the body is just as essential to being a human being as the soul is. Death is a separation of the two, but they are destined to be reunited and transformed at the end of time, when Jesus Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, the usher in his kingdom. Belief in the bodily resurrection is an important tenet of orthodox Christianity, one that prevents us from falling in Gnosticism or dualism -- both of which disparage one part of God's creation and handiwork (the body) by thinking of it in false opposition with another (the soul).

As for heaven and hell, they are essentially two sides to the same coin. When all else is stripped away from our existence, and there is only God before us, his light, brightness and glory will be joy for those who love him, but agony for those who do not. Think about how you felt the last time you were forced to be in a room with someone you really disliked, and you'll get the idea on a very small scale.

Plenty take "pride" in their "being saved" nowadays, often while looking down on others, but Jesus Christ warns: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," even if they worked miracles and prophesied in his name -- they will even hear him say, "I never knew you: away from me, you evildoers!'" (Matthew 7:21-23). All the more reason for Christians to be humble and set about *doing* the will of God the Father: learning to love him by loving our fellow human beings in very real and practicabl

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 20, 2008 | 9:28 PM

To quote Northton, "As Layder would say, 'You don't get stupider as you get older but you don't get smarter unless ya learn more.' Amen?"

Some people do get stupider as they grow older because they don't get smarter the more they learn.  Rather, they are simply wise in their own conceitedness.

When you believe you know enough to think there is nothing so big or so much smarter than yourself that it cannot be explained, you might as well have Alzheimer's, and be sitting in a chair like Hawking's.

What I want to ask you, Joe, is who defines that orthodoxy you mentioned?  If it is the same group that defies the Second Commandment with their carved and painted images in their sanctuaries, I would hardly call them orthodox.

However, you are absolutely correct that the litmus test is found in Jesus' instruction, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

didaskalos read my blog
Aug 21, 2008 | 1:22 AM

My concern is with your wording for 1a. "primarily evaluated on the basis of performance." That sounds like works righteousness rather than grace. General judgement (great white throne - salvation) and the evaluation of a Christian's actions (those already pardoned) at the judgement seat of Christ are different. My concern is that some might confuse your wording to mean that good deeds and motives (good things indeed) are the basis for salvation when they are not ... but rather the resulting fruit in the lives of those who have received salvation (grace through faith).

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 21, 2008 | 8:58 AM

Well noted, didaskalos.
I did not approach the grace issue directly, but rather focused on Jesus' person and doctrine.  This time, my approach was a more generic, and (if you will pardon the expression) secular avenue.  Sin is still sin, and hell is still hot.  One who denies the existence of hell denies the justice of God, and the need for a redeemer.

Everyone seeks Rest in Paradise, but, too many deny the threat of Eternal Separation from God, which is Hell.

If one truly believes on the Son, his performance regarding the required standard will include a thirst for the Word, in Faith, which reveals the Grace position.

didaskalos read my blog
Aug 21, 2008 | 10:43 AM

Well said, Arky.

Gorilla read my blog
Aug 21, 2008 | 12:20 PM

If the universe (creation) is made up of an infinite ocean of abstract potential... and GOD is defined as potential...in the words of the WHO "I don't need to be forgiven"

What if it is an unconscious separation from GOD? An illusion of duality. Why must the creator be separate from creation. I cannot see the difference with our ability to be creative. Consciousness is on a never-ending journey to GOD-realization. Living as Christ is a path to enlightenment. One of many.
Once enlightened or "righteous" or holy your perspective changes enough to be tolerant, and always forgiving. Forgiveness is divine.

For each his own, the personal relationship with GOD is personal, but collectively GOD can only be potential. Potential for some to see the light, ultimately the ones who search will find it.
What we want collectively is peace of mind...the specifics of the story can be lost as long as message isn't.

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 21, 2008 | 3:30 PM

I'm curious, then, Gorilla:

I see God as a distinct and individual personage; self-aware, rational, and emotional. I don't see Him as a mere concept or idea.

It seems to me by your comments that you tend toward universalism or pantheism. Is that a fair assessment?

sipedo read my blog view my photos
Aug 21, 2008 | 8:14 PM

I would like to touch on the idea of a new and eternal body.

Scientists are baffled by the human body in many regards. Out of practicality, the human body is designed to live forever. It regenerates all over the place. Scientists have been unable to isolate the trait brings the body to degeneration. Why do we grow old? Why do we die? The human body is an amazing creation, capable of healing itself, fighting off infection. Still, we live, we grow older, and we die, sometimes of unnatural causes, sometimes from disease and old age. What is it that makes the body break down? Scientists are still trying to answer that one, and all they have are theories. Could it be that SIN isn't as far fetched as some would want you to believe? Am I making any sense?

The human body was designed to live forever. When sin entered the picture, the process of dying entered into the equation. Science has yet to come up with a reason as to WHY we die. Those who are faith know that it is SIN.

northton read my blog view my photos
Aug 21, 2008 | 9:10 PM

"The human body was designed to live forever."

That's the second dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nothing lasts forever, nothing, not diamonds, not stars, not galaxies, and not people. You so silly.

Gorilla read my blog
Aug 22, 2008 | 4:14 AM

I feel the concept of the divine creator is so monstrous it is beyond all verbal and physical description. Beyond time and space, infinite knowledge, and infinite power.

I feel nothing is real but GOD, and nothing matters but love for GOD. All of creation.

Creation from the standpoint of the creator is a divine sport, testing his infinite knowledge and infinite bliss in all circumstance, from the standpoint of the creature with its limited knowledge and limited potential for bliss is a naturalist struggle...
Once the weight of hate, greed, arrogance, dominance is lifted from the creature (possible through living as christ) peace and bliss is attained. The ability to forgive resonates.

SIN is bad, so don't do it...Through the grace of Christ I am forgiven, and I thank him for my 1up.

Gorilla read my blog
Aug 22, 2008 | 4:17 AM

I'll try to win without using it...^ -^

Arky51 read my blog view my photos
Aug 22, 2008 | 7:54 AM

OUR GOD WHOSE WISDOM IS BEYOND ALL COMPREHENSION.
REACHES DOWN TO HIS CREATED, BECAUSE WE CANNNOT REACH HIM.
SAVED BY GRACE - OBEDIENT BECAUSE OF LOVE.

didaskalos read my blog
Aug 22, 2008 | 3:40 PM

Gorilla asked, "Why must the creator be separate from creation?" Because if God is not distinct from and transcendent over His creation, then He is limited by that very creation. This even goes against your own definition of God as being "potential."

Like Arky and Sipedo, I reject that impersonal definition of God. I do not find the God's divine nature of Love and transcendence to be monsterous. Transcendence permits interaction with the creation without being controlled by it. If god is controlled by his creation, then he is impotent rather than omnipotent.

Arky, you nailed Gorilla. Other blogs reveal his/her pantheistic worldview and philosophical universalism.

Gorilla read my blog
Aug 22, 2008 | 6:02 PM

Dida you missed the memo, thanks for your 2 cents...Arky I agree...

Are you not happy with that definition dida?
Collectively GOD is no more or less.
Truth is righteous. Is that not a definable truth?
Step back and realize your "potential."

Wisdom happens when we stop believing what we don't know.

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Arky51

Florida Native and Lifelong Resident. Country, but not redneck. Vietnam Vet (1970-71) not ashamed. Starting to grey around the edges and in my beard. Missing my dear Wife since 4/22/07. She went to be with Jesus. [I believe the Holy Bible (as originally written) is the inerrant Word of God. As much as it depends upon me, I will be at peace with all. Nevertheless, I will not compromise the tenets of Biblical Christianity. I know that many who say they are Christian do not care for or obey the teachings of Jesus.] . . . . [I believe the Constitution of the United States, including the first ten amendments (as originally written) and subsequent amendments passed by prescribed process, are the only legitimate law of this Nation UNDER GOD; that the tenets of our Constitution can be plainly understood by The Common Folk, as well as the erudite; and that those who would change those plain meanings by any craft or crook are Traitors to us all.]

Member Since: 10/20/2006